Curse

Chthon · May 30, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

In response to the single point in the now-deleted flame-filled post, a-net can most certainly provide evidence of botting without giving botters any information whatsoever about how botting is detected.

Give them a raw log. There's no new information in there. The botter already knows, or is at least in a position to know, when they were logged in, where, and what buttons their bot pressed. A raw log says zero about how a-net processed that information to choose your account to look at, or which threshholds you crossed. But it's more than enough to demonstrate bot-like behavior.

MSecorsky · May 30, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

A real simple way to find and annihilate a bunch of bots would be to, in the towns where bots run wild, have an update that adds a "bot-trap" type of obstacle. Something any human person would get around easily but will hold a bot stuck. Then, if you're stuck for any period of time, you're nailed.

If you're dumb enough to run into the trap and wait to be banned... no pity for you.

Then, periodically change the traps when it appears the bot programs have been reprogrammed to avoid them.

But before the first trap is set, tell us so we can watch! Good times waitin' to happen!

Laharl the Angel · May 30, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

bot trap ftw

lightblade · May 30, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

They don't need 5 min of investigation on each. Some are just really obvious, like those that wear tattoos.

It became even easier to identify the bots after the update, because most monks would be changing armor, the tattoo is just ugly. But the bots would still be wearing tattoo.

Strangely, Gaile said that the bots acquired their accounts by stealing, but we don't get that kind of post around the forum.

wetsparks · May 30, 2007, 11:17 PM // 23:17

yes because we all think tattoos are ugly and only bots would were them. Those 55s that got tattoos before the update for the extra energy have no need for new armor since the old armor already have the energy and the runes.

Griff Mon · May 30, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebaall

I would be very interested in hearing about some legal action somebody has taken against Anet for an unjust permanent ban.

I can see some rich person who has nothing but time on their hands that lives and breathes Guild Wars having their account banned unjustly. I think if you got a lawyer involved who demanded evidence of the banning process and started hauling people in to depose them would get their account back and a tidy little settlement just to make them go away.

Heck, just a letter from a lawyer after a person has exhausted communication with Anet would greatly improve their chances of getting their account back very quickly.

Noz Crow · May 30, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

You know if they fixed the loot scaling nerf then less people would have to farm so much and then less people would look like bots. I used to farm just enough to buy average gear. I started 2 new toons (a mes and a necro) right before the loot scaling crap and now if i want to finish them i have to farm like a little bot farmer to complete them. I think i will just delete them and not buy any more arena net products.

allience · May 30, 2007, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Hi,

Ironically I was just posting about this subject in another forum. I'll share that below--reduce, reuse, recycle!

-- but I wanted to address some of your specific issues. We have various ways in which bots are identified. One is observation, it's true. A few weekends ago I played the role of "observer," just to see how easy it was to identify bots, and let me tell you, when you watch the same characters spin inside a chest for two hours, you can be pretty sure that's not backed by a human player.

When you see the same odd pathing, or the "weird pathing parades" mentioned above, or when you see precise, predictable timing of appearance and actions over hours, you can make some level of assumption about "Is that real or is that a bot?"

We have a lot more people working on bots, on three continents. (Numbers mentioned in the discussion above are not even close.) Further, we can pull data on a suspected bot within a minute or two. We could run through a dozen names, and carefully review the data and make the daily/weekly/monthly numbers that we've publicized with ease. So don't worry, no one is getting an insta-ban for crossing a low threshold; they're getting blocked after several multiple reviews. (And HawkofStorms is right -- PMing is not a real good measure of bot-ness.)

Now, let me share a bit about bans: The number of people who are banned in error is miniscule. It may appear to be a "major problem" because those who are banned are vocal about it, sometimes understandably because the ban was in error, sometimes manipulatively, because they hope if they make a big enough fuss, they'll get unbanned. (Like the forum member a month or two ago who claimed his "store-purchased" account was closed unjustly, but who in fact was using a re-purchased PlayNC account that got closed in a charge-back scheme.) When you see protests, remember that what you often don't see after the "I was banned" thread is "I was unbanned" or "Ok, yes, I was botting and I (deservedly) lost my appeal," or "I said I was banned for botting, but in fact I was banned for scamming people or gold sales or something else that's disallowed, and I was trying to weasel out of it by joining the 'unjust ban' crowd."

The Support Team really does use a careful and conservative set of parameters for banning. They also take care to review all the data in cases where the ban may have been placed in error. That's not to say errors don't happen, but that's also not to say that an appeal is a "Get out of jail free card." Bans for clear use of bots should and will remain in place. However, the team is not inclined to ban for banning's sake, and they will give careful attention to issues with account actions and will discuss potential changes to the parameters if it appears that issues have arisen with how bots are identified or confirmed.

There may be some small risk in my saying all this, which is that it may encourage botters to appeal, or to think that if they only protest loudly enough "I didn't do it!" we'll say "Oh, ok, fine, you're cleared." We cannot do that! By the end of this month, the Support Teams will have banned about 8,000 bots. That is a good thing for the players and a good thing for the game economy and it's something that we will continue to do, always using care to ban only those who deserve it, and always showing consideration in setting the bar to avoid nabbing those who do not.

-why is it so hard THESE DAYS to get your case studied and get a real reply if you ask about a banned account or any other game issue? i understand that some "casuaities" happen in mass bans but i noticed a significant change in the support department in this regard.

i've had first hand experience with the support staff and it just degrated in time. about a year ago, if you emailed about your problem and asked them to verify, you would get an actual reply. i personally know of 2 accounts that were banned for no reason because anet made a mistake. the person emailed them, provided the info asked and them to rechek their data and then they reopened the account and said sorry. this is OK, was good support.

BUT if you email them TODAY about the same issue, things have changed. first of all they strait up send u an auto-reply stating that they don't adress permanent ban complaints. if u keep e-mailing them, they'll ask for you cd-key. they did NOT used to do this. if you can't give the key for whatever reason, u'll simply get ignored. this measure only prevents players from getting the support they deserve.

now i think that this cd-key issue is very important. just ask your friend list and see why STILL has the cd-key of a game that's been out for 2+years and that only required the code to create account. you'll be surprised that most of the ppl don't have this info anymore. if something was to happen to them, they will get ignored. also about the claimed "careful study of bot activity", why doesn't anet EVER provide any proof of your wrong activity since they claim you breached the code? a simple piece of evidence will put all complaint at rest if they are not legit.

on another note, real botters generaly won't bother going through all the trouble of emailing anet about being banned coz they know anet has proof. and generally speaking wasting 15 mins on making a support tiket about something u know u did wrong, is just not productive.

-another issue i find weird is the lack of support of playNC. if you never visited the official gw store, they sent u to this link to PlayNc to create an account. WHAT THEY DON'T TELL YOU, is that once u link your account to the store, (which is the only way to view its content) you will be unable to ever change your guild wars log-in name. and IF you want to change you gw password, you have to do it through your PlayNC account. You can never change again your account info and password by editing IN gw.

now if you happen to put some bogus name/adress/brithdate in PlayNC and you forget it, u're done for it. you can't ever change your gw password. this actually happened to my friend. he simply wanted to look at the store and had no idea that his gw account will automatically link with PlayNc.

he emailed the staff, told them the story and they asked him his cd-key, picture of the game card AND fax of his gw game reciept. he didn't have these things. to this day he can't change his gw password.

i just don't understand why you guys don't put a warning about this linking of gw account to PlayNc. arnt you aware that this gw and store linking led to many account thefts?

-in the end, the support staff got less responsive during the past year. they keep coming up with all of ways of avoiding helping the customer by implementing unrelistic requirements to even get them to look at your demand.
come on, pictures and faxes of game card and reciept?
next step is asking for our own picture with the game in hand.........

Gaile Gray · May 31, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff Mon

I can see some rich person who has nothing but time on their hands that lives and breathes Guild Wars having their account banned unjustly. I think if you got a lawyer involved who demanded evidence of the banning process and started hauling people in to depose them would get their account back and a tidy little settlement just to make them go away.

Heck, just a letter from a lawyer after a person has exhausted communication with Anet would greatly improve their chances of getting their account back very quickly.

No. We will not bow down to the threat of legal action. Nor will we make a settlement to avoid legal action. I know this for fact.

allience, sorry, but you're mistaken. You seem to suggest that "botters do not appeal, therefore all appeals should automatically be accepted." That's just not reasonable. You also imply that the Support Team asking for proof that you own an account is unreasonable. But how else do we settle issues such as a claim of account theft when two people say, with equal volume, that they own the account?

NekoZ · May 31, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

No. We will not bow down to the threat of legal action. Nor will we make a settlement to avoid legal action. I know this for fact.

allience, sorry, but you're mistaken. You seem to suggest that "botters do not appeal, therefore all appeals should automatically be accepted." That's just not reasonable. You also imply that the Support Team asking for proof that you own an account is unreasonable. But how else do we settle issues such as a claim of account theft when two people say, with equal volume, that they own the account?

Alright I would like to speak in allience's defense real quick about your first statement. "You seem to suggest.. blah blah"- He did NOT say they should be automatically accepted. What I think he "implies" (which I don't think should be done but you did) is that the appeals shouldn't be automatically rejected by a machine. That is unreasonable. He has a point that most (he even said "generally won't") botters will not send an appeal, so why deny every request automatically? However, asking for a CD-Key is completely reasonable, there is no reason you should throw out the key, if you happen to lose it then.. maybe sending a picture of the cd/box you bought should do some justice. But in the case of the 2 people for one account situation, then yeah tough luck.

Something needs to be done.

EDIT: Also, don't you logs keep IP checks also? I know IP's are not completely reliable since they do change, but, if let's the the account was opened and played most with one IP, then changes to another, can't you compare IPs as one way to check who had the account first if the IP of the original person hasn't changed? Just a suggestion..

Gaile Gray · May 31, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

You are correct. I reread the statement about botters and appeals, and I apologize for having leapt to the conclusion that the suggestion was to release all who send an appeal. I guess I've just seen so many people asking for the "Get out of Jail Cards" I see the suggestion even if it's not in place.

allience, if you feel that Support is not responding as it once did, I do want to say something in their...er... support.

The game has many more players than it once did. The number of professional gold sellers has risen since the early days, as these people try to capitalize on the popularity of our games to make a (illegal) buck. So there are more bots in the game, we all see that. Beyond that, I think that the number of appeals from actual bot users may be rising, as people work to try to find "the right buttons to push" to get that their ban lifted, so they can go back to gold selling. So: More players; more bots; more unjustified appeals.

If Support is using a first line of response letting people know the situation in a general sense, I cannot blame them, because of the circumstances above. I do know, though, that everyone who writes does get a human review, and the account is reexamined for possible reinstatement. If you feel otherwise, or if you've seen instances where our intentions were not fulfilled, please do have your friend or guild mate follow up on it with Support.

Oh, and on the subject of appeals, something that might be sort of amusing: One of my mailboxes received about 10 emails, all sent within three minutes of one another, all exactly the same words, each appealing a different block. And it's certain that each of the "writers" had been playing a bot, or engaging in UA-prohibited actions because I'd observed them myself. So yes, "bots" do send appeals.

lightblade · May 31, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

I don't see how you can proof that someone is a bot. A screenshot is just a still image, a video just shows the player running around doing nothing but spinning, and..what else is there?

NekoZ · May 31, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

allience, if you feel that Support is not responding as it once did, I do want to say something in their...er... support.

The game has many more players than it once did. The number of professional gold sellers has risen since the early days, as these people try to capitalize on the popularity of our games to make a (illegal) buck. So there are more bots in the game, we all see that. Beyond that, I think that the number of appeals from actual bot users may be rising, as people work to try to find "the right buttons to push" to get that their ban lifted, so they can go back to gold selling. So: More players; more bots; more unjustified appeals.

I always wondered, and figure this is my best chance to ask, why can't you guys get these websites shut down with legal action (and request ebay also prohibits these auctions)?

And with the influx of new players, why can't ya just hire more support people (or pay them more =p)?

lyra_song · May 31, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by NekoZ

I always wondered, and figure this is my best chance to ask, why can't you guys get these websites shut down with legal action (and request ebay also prohibits these auctions)?

And with the influx of new players, why can't ya just hire more support people (or pay them more =p)?

Legal action is expensive. And losing a legal action would be VERY VERY bad.

However i do think NCSoft needs to team up with the other big MMO companies (Blizzard) and bring a joint lawsuit on a very very prominent Gold Selling website and really shut one down.

Its not about the ToS with Anet. Its about the game client itself. The basis is pure DCMA.

Guild Wars client is coprighted by Anet/NCSoft. All the ownership belongs to Anet/NCSoft.

Gold Seller has no right to use Guild Wars client/bandwidth/server space in any way outside of normal gameplay.

The usage of the client to make money belongs purely to Anet/NCSoft. Only they can sell it, use it for sales, manipulate it, and change it.

Gold Selling does not fall under Fair Use.

Gold Selling is a violation of copyright since you are using the copyrighted Guild Wars client in a commercial nature (vs a non-profit nature or educational).

-----

But the real problem is actually prosecuting since these websites are not necessarily based in countries where you can get them on such laws.

Gaile Gray · May 31, 2007, 03:41 AM // 03:41

You are very wise, lyra_song. It's a incredibly complicated situation. We do what we can, and frequently investigate options to do more, but the difficulties that you outline are a very real issue with putting a full stop to all such activity.

fenix · May 31, 2007, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Ebay have already started removing ANYTHING that is related to selling game things, apart from the physical games. So gold/accounts/etc are all deleted. This is a good start, but it's mainly the Gold selling websites that are the problem. Sure, you can ban accounts, but with the money they sell, they can EASILY buy brand new accounts. Even moreso, I've seen a couple of bots spamming to buy accounts (just single chapter ones) for 100k. If they actually get accounts sold to them, there's ANOTHER account they can bot on, but for much cheaper.

Griff Mon · May 31, 2007, 04:28 AM // 04:28

A lot of these sites I believe are hosted in countries that do not respond to this kind of legal pressure anyway. One well known pirate site actually attempted to get hosted on an old derrick off the British Coast that calls itself a country. In spite of best efforts, game gold sellers, pirated software sites, people that steal music, movies, etc, find a way to hide behind laws in countries that don't recognize copyrights beyond their own borders. It is a tricky business trying to shut these people down, and don't even get me started on newsgroups.....

allience · May 31, 2007, 10:59 AM // 10:59

gaile, u have a point. i understand that the number of players and bots raised in the past year, but you can't blame me for being upset that the support team hasn't been responding as 1 year ago. the good thing is that i asked around and found out that botters got hit hard by the loot scaling and hopefully their number is diminishing. if bots will go away, i hope the support department starts being nicer again

something else that bothers me about the support is the gw store. WHY don't you guys put a simple message stating that filling and submiting the form to visit the GW store will Permanently link your game account with PlayNc? People don't know that this happens until they actually try to edit their info from the GW client and see that it's not possible anymore. a simple message like this will make them pay attention to what they write there.

i mentioned in my previous post how my friend filled out that form with random letters BECAUSE he thought it was just gonna look in the store. he didn't know it will link his account and to this day he can't change his password to gw because he doesn't know what random gibberish he wrote when he filled out the form. he emailed support and couldn't get anything done. he doesn't have his game card anymore. he knows his current gw pass and log in name, the account is his and it never had a problem of somebody else claiming to own it, yet the support department refuses to help him. i suggested to him to send them his picture while playing on it..

my other friend, put his birthday wrong by accident. then one day he wanted to change his gw password. he was surprised to see that in order to do that he had to enter his b-day on the PlayNc site. he emailed support about it and even though he told them his PlayNc accout name/password and Gw account name/password they didn't help him because of the birthday thing. fortunately for him he remembered the date he had written, but had he not, he would be stuck with 1 permanent gw password.

these is 2 stories of ppl i know for 2 years. just imagine how many more cases like this are out there just because ppl don't know that visiting the gw store totally changes their account management options!!

lastly, concerning account theft, don't you think that it's weird there are basically no complaints on the forums about account theft, but that on the other hand the support team gets often issues of account theft? i dunno but if somebody would steal my account i'd certainly post about it.

as i heard of these issues, account theft appealing is often a scam itself. i mean if u look in the main cities, there's always ppl saying WTS: gw account 100k or WTB gw accnt 100k. i dunno the mechanics of the scam but i'm prety sure it has something to do with PlayNc made accounts and i think that those emails to the support departments are basically from scamers getting scamed.

Fril Estelin · May 31, 2007, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Hi there,

2 things missing in the OP computation:

1) the 5 minutes are very very probably not spent observing the person, but rather looking into automatically generated profiles and logs, which (I think, I may be wrong) are probably obtained from some very clever programming techniques (that are surely updated based on the Anet's knowledge of bot/spammers); I guess player profiles may range over the various characters, and even a character's profile may be quite a subtle thing;

2) overall, what's important is not to aim for 0% false-positives (legit people that end up considered bot/spamnmers) but for a proportion that is low enough compared to a) the level of threat (number of bot/spammers that Anet only knows, for obvious reasons); and b) the amount of time taken to rectify the false-positives (give back their account to legit people).

Fighting this fight is a tremendous job, believe me. For each step that Anet does to prevent abuse, the bot/spammers do another step to bypass the new measures in a short amount of time. These guys have time, number and envy, and they're very good at finding holes and how to exploit people's behaviour. Given that we pay no monthly fee for Anet's services, I'd say they're doing a tremendous job under the pressure! (in the security industry, people are paid a lot of money to tackle this kind of problems ...)

As I said a long time ago here, and in particular since the new GW Chinese and Russian markets are open, the solution in the long term will require human moderators in combination with nice anti-"social engineering" geatures, and even probably a dose of "legal threat". But I guess that may not be before GW2. In the end, it's all about a very fine balance, if Anet were to tackle this problem in a throrough manner, GW would no longer be fee-free. There's even a very delicate manner to approach this problem, for exemple relative to releasing public information (reverse-engineering is probably the 2nd most useful skill for these "bad guys", just after "social engineering").

Fril Estelin · May 31, 2007, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Hi there,

Quote:

Originally Posted by allience

my other friend, put his birthday wrong by accident. then one day he wanted to change his gw password. he was surprised to see that in order to do that he had to enter his b-day on the PlayNc site. he emailed support about it and even though he told them his PlayNc accout name/password and Gw account name/password they didn't help him because of the birthday thing. fortunately for him he remembered the date he had written, but had he not, he would be stuck with 1 permanent gw password.

And how would Anet's staff make the difference between your friend and someone impersonating your friend? Just put yourself in their shoes: they don't know him, they received dozens of complaints a day (if not an hour!), and all people claim to be the legit owner of the account. And regularly some people are just trying to steal people's account by claiming they lost the identification information (you can even create VERY convincing stories and back them with some verifiable facts). Identity theft is already the biggest threat online, and growing still rapidly.

If you really want hard to understand this issue, read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Deception-.../dp/0471237124